1 November 2024
On Episode 181 of Military Life Podcast, the Chief of Army, Lieutenant General, Simon Stuart, AO, DSC (CA) speaks with Bec on the vital role families play to a Defence member’s service.
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Military Life: Welcome to the podcast Chief of Army Australia, Lieutenant General Simon Stewart.
CA: Thanks Bec, thanks for having me.
Military Life: When I think about Defence families, I think about a diverse, adaptable, strong and resourceful group of people. What comes to mind for you when you think about Defence families and Army families in particular?
CA: That's a great question. That's probably three things. The first thing I would offer is the notion of service. And service in our profession, obviously has a specific meaning. It means effectively putting purpose in people or mission of mates before oneself. And I'm always struck by just how strong a sense of purpose there is, a sense of service there is amongst our families, even though they don't wear the uniform, but their equally invested. I think that's really quite remarkable and a great credit to them.
The second characteristic that stands out for me is resilience. As you well know from your decades of experience of service life, you've got to figure things out. You’re often presented with some difficult circumstances, sometimes your support networks are not there, or you're a long way away, or you've got to build new ones very, very quickly. You have got to trust people that you perhaps haven’t known for very long or don't really know at all, that requires I think, a great deal of personal resilience. So I'm always struck by that strength, if you like.
And the other is a willingness to identify and embrace opportunities. Almost like a sense of adventure where people can see the opportunities and they're willing to put their resilience to the test in some sense, in order to kind of realise the phenomenal opportunities for our families that come from service life.
Military Life: So in saying that for the first time, Army families were publicly acknowledged and thanked during National Family Week earlier this year. And National Families Week is aimed at celebrating and highlighting the vital role that families play in society. All of what you've just said has describes who Defence and Army families in particular are, but how vital are families when it comes to members and Army as a whole?
You've previously said people are our greatest asset and the key to unlocking our potential. How does that translate to families?
CA: Whenever I have the privilege of promoting someone or farewelling them, one of the points I make–because I think it's really important–the way our Army works is we work as teams. We don't achieve anything as individuals, really. Everything we do, we achieve as teams. And that's one of the most, I think, satisfying aspects of being in our Army.
But I’ll go on to say that the team that matters most, the team for life, are our families. And so when we talk about an Army family, it's a team of teams, if you like. So I always encourage our people amongst all of the busy pressures of their jobs and daily life, you've got to take some time to focus on your family–your team for life–and we have a way of prioritising in Army. We always try and make sure the main thing is the main thing, and we call that the main effort. Well, at some stage during your day, during your week, during your month, your family's going to be your main effort because that, as you say, that should be time for life. And it's the team that sustains you through your service.
That's the first point. The second, you know, comes back to what we were just discussing. In terms of service. It's a collective effort. It's a team sport. We are individuals, in uniform, but always part of a family. We go home to our families, some every night, some every week. You know, it might be a few months if you're living away from your family, but that's your point of reference. That's your home.
And so I think it's really important to recognise that our families are part of our service. And you can't render service, you know, without a supportive, and well supported family. And then I think we probably all heard the saying before, you recruit the soldier, but you retain the family. So there's a very pragmatic, focus to this as well.
You know, if you want to compete in a competitive marketplace for very talented, committed Australians, then you know, you've got to look at the whole family that come and provide that service.
Military Life: Yeah, definitely. And earlier you mentioned there's a lot of qualities that Defence families have and one being resilience and adaptability that just sort of have to get on with it.
In your 2024 message, you said a special thank you to all our families who posted this year. I do sincerely appreciate your commitment and forbearance. I know that along with all of the opportunities that come with a posting, there are also challenges. What are the challenges that you see Army families facing at the moment?
CA: Yeah, I said that because I recall my own family's experience, we were at a stage where our kids were sort of young teenagers, where they’ve lived in more houses than they were years old, and it's always that time of year. So I really wanted to acknowledge what people were going through. If you look at the top five most stressful things in life–moving house, state or country–it is up there in that sort of top five. In my family’s own experience, I could sum it up in one word, and that's agency, because you surrender so much to the decisions of others in terms of where you're going to live. When you're going to go there, how long are you going to be there? What comes next and where you live really matters for families.
So we have nearly 15,000 soldiers who have families. About a third of those, about 4,700 have children who are under five years old. So, from a very pragmatic perspective, where you live matters because that then determines where you can get childcare. If you can get it. The choice of where your children might go to school, that becomes even more important if you have specific requirements, your commute and your work opportunities as a partner. The point at which your children might be at school, whether they’re just beginning, whether they have a learning difficulty or other special need, social adjustment, whether they're completing their sort of final years of high school. And of course, you know, are you moving further away or are you closer to your family, and support base.
Childcare I think is one of those areas where it can make a real difference. If you can't get childcare, you can't work. If you can't work in a double income family, I mean, as you probably know, in the housing market, which is still an aspiration for many people, there's an impact on your superannuation long term view. Your obvious overall earning potential, these are all things that are well documented and backed up by ABS stats. And they contribute to things like the gender pay gap, as you know it’s a very competitive space. When ours were in pre-school and my wife went back to work, those few years were a blur.
Military Life: Yeah, the juggle. Who’s doing this? Can we get care for that?
CA: Yeah, and she was basically working for nothing, in fact less than nothing for us to pay for two kids in childcare.
Military Life: Yeah for sure
CA: I think in our experience, our family’s experience and obviously the experience of many of our friends and all the phenomenal soldiers I've had the privilege of serving with comes down to agency. And I think that's an area where I'm focused in terms of how to improve that.
So we've made some really good inroads into things like posting assurity. In other words, you might get your posting and you'll get the one afterwards. And we started with our people who are in the most remote locations. So for example, those serving in our Regional Force Surveillance Group. So they're posting to whatever the location is, and some of these are some of the most remote places in our country. And then you also get the posting order for your next location, the other one is to try and achieve better geographic stability. So you might get posted, but you're still in the same barracks or in the same area. And you importantly, your family can stay in the same home, same schools, same community and support networks. And we can also help with that by increasing where possible the tenure of a posting. So from two years to three years, for example. So I don't think there's one silver bullet. It's going to be a range of these sort of policy decisions that help us get to a better position.
I think having a greater range of options and flexibility when it comes to housing is really important, and being able to do that very, very early in the year. So you can get all those sorts of things set up. I think arrangements with state governments and the private school system, so that there's you know, space for Defence families.
I know, from my own experience, sometimes you're able to kind of make an arrangement. And through the generosity and good graces of particular principals, you know, they’re able to help out. But I think a series of arrangements will help with the state, and some private schools, is where we need to move, because that then just takes away one of the biggest stressors for parents in terms of, where is my child going to go to school?
Again, it comes back to having the agency, where am I going to live? What kind of place am I going to live in? It gives people the agency to choose what's going to suit the family and make choices and compromises that are going to suit their circumstances. There is no one size fits all when it comes to families, and that means that policy needs to be durable and flexible.
Military Life: The underlying theme of that, is that the wellbeing of the family and obviously the children, underpins the wellbeing of the member. And if the member is not able to focus on their commitment to the service because the wellbeing of their family is compromised, and that has a whole raft of other challenges that are proposed.
CA: Exactly right. So again, looking at that from a personal perspective, and this is the same experience that everyone that becomes a parent or is responsible for their own aging parents in terms of carer responsibilities is a common experience. But when I joined the Army at 18 years old, you know, as a young soldier, to start with, the priorities in my life were quite different to when my wife and I met and then had children.
And our decision, you know, when we were expecting our first child was we’ll keep doing this because we think it's a great life, it's a great purpose, and there's a lot to be gained from it. But if it doesn't work for our children, then we'll stop doing it and do something else. And who wouldn't? Team for life. You know, your children and your family are the most precious things in anyone's life, and you're always going to do the right thing by them. And if doing the right thing by them means they're not serving anymore, well, that's something we ought to be really interested in, because we want our people to continue to serve, and we need them to, and so a really big part of that is to address the changing set of considerations and priorities.
As you know, invariably young soldiers go through that journey of life and meet the people they want to spend their life with and start their own families, whatever those families may might look like.
Military Life: You just mentioned changing, anytime something new comes into force for families, because my teams or service chiefs have heard what they need and that the needs of the families are ever evolving, that's going to be a continual thing in regards to trying new things, piloting different support programs or whatever the case may be to help families meet the challenges of Defence life. How do you stay in touch with the experience of Defence families on the ground, but then also take those learnings and put it into force with new programs, with different ways of postings and all of the things that you've just mentioned, how do you keep that evolving and how do you stay in touch with the experiences of everyday families?
CA: In a few ways. So firstly, data is really important and improving. You know, our data set and the way we understand our people and families is really, really important. So the Chief of Personnel, Lieutenant General Natasha Fox, who was previously our Deputy Chief of Army, is doing some phenomenal work to build that data set to make sure the data we do have is accessible, can be correlated, and we importantly can draw insight from it to help inform policy. And that's really important. The second aspect to informing policy is ensuring it's sufficiently flexible and durable to meet the range of different circumstances, because our services are quite different, not good or bad, right or wrong, different, just different. Because we operate in different environments.
For example, our Army is in 157 locations around the country, from Thursday Island to Tasmania and from Broome to Sydney, and Navy is largely concentrated into fleet bases east, west and a few other places, but we require them to go to sea for half the year. So it's just different. And there are different challenges in terms of how you apply policy depending on where your people are. Most of our Army serves above the Tropic of Capricorn, in what have been described by experts as child care deserts. So it's about correlating that data and understanding where the challenges are, where the gaps are, and then making sure that our policy and therefore our prioritisation, and our resources are focused where we're actually going to make a real difference.
So that data really, really matters. So obviously we work with the Defence People Group, with Chief of Personnel, and Defence Member and Family Services. So, you know, I think, that organisation plays an outsize role in what it does, I think it’s an exceptionally good return on investment–if you like–and making sure that we keep them at the centre of our efforts, I think is really, really important. I think there's a bit more work to do there.
So you've got the institutional, the data centric approach. And then there's people, you know, you need to go and talk to people. So the RSM of the Army and I spend a lot of time on the road trying to cover the ground and get around to those 157 locations, talk to people, and oftentimes we'll get an opportunity to speak to families as well.
When my wife's not working, she sometimes comes as well, and she's phenomenally effective at being able to get around and talk to families. And we'll sit down at the end of the day and I’ll go this is what I got, and she'll go, okay that's great pal, but this is the actual issues that are on people's minds.
So you've got to make sure that you are getting, you know, to what people really think. And so there’s different ways and means of doing that. Obviously through our chains of command, through engaging with people in those locations. As an example, tomorrow we head off to North-West Mobile Force, everywhere from East Arnhem Land to Alice Springs and over into the Kimberley, and then the Pilbara Regiment in some places, like Tom Price and Karratha or in Geraldton. And you know where our people are, and then down into Perth where we've got, you know, some larger concentrations. So you've got to be out constantly talking to people, getting their views. We're up in Thursday Island not so long ago, that was early in my tenure, and I got firsthand exposure to some of the challenges there and we've been able to focus on some methods of fixing housing and those kinds of things. So that's the sort of two ends of the spectrum.
Military Life: I know you mentioned data and policy, and obviously that needs to be the basis of anything to have sustained change. And I know that it was mentioned at the Royal Commission that it's using that data to lead policy, but also being able to do it quick enough so you can turn it around so you can have an impact on the challenges that the policy is supposed to be fixing or helping with. But to have that turnaround time a little bit quicker. I know that DVA, are making strides to have that feedback loop with people so that people understand that when they participate in research or possible pilot programs, they get the feedback about why it's not going forward, or what worked and what didn't work, and what's going to sort of change going forward. How do you sort of use that data and then policy change to have that impact quick enough?
CA: To be quite frank, at the moment, you've got to use the data that's available and then you've got to go through it with people and then make some decisions, and then fix it or try something else. If it does work, that's great. What is it’s–you know–relative value, how much effort, time, resources should we put into it. Because I've got, I've also got to balance it. It's a very individual thing. But I also need to be able to scale what we're doing. So there's some very good success there in terms of conditions of service, and remuneration packages, and those kinds of things. So the target now is really to lift the policy, that and the resourcing that supports families directly versus hindering them.
Military Life: So in saying that soon an Army Families Handbook will be introduced and that might just sound like, okay, well it's a handbook that doesn't sound like much. But in regards to connecting new Army families with the experience of giving them information, helping them feel like they belong, and that they know what might be ahead, but also that they're acknowledged, and that there's been effort put into understanding what they need, and producing something like an Army Family's Handbook, it might not necessarily seem like a big deal, but for families it could be a big deal. I think that the chances of it being useful are quite high in this regard. And the reason I say that is because it's inception is based on feedback from our families. It's drafting is by families, for families. And you are one of 200 families who are currently user testing it, so we can refine it and get it out.
It'll be the first edition, and as you pointed out at the beginning, things change. And so as they change, we'll need to continue to update it. So what I want to see is a continual cycle of updating. I'm also, hoping that we'll be able to crowdsource information, experiences, tips and that that kind of thing. So use it as a live way of leveraging the richness of people's experience, good and bad, to help others.
Military Life: And that's something that can set families on a path without some even knowing it. And a positive path, instead of feeling like they're on the back foot right from the start and not really knowing what they're doing and trying to find information from different sources, if they understand that Army is looking out for them and providing this book for them, this guide for them, that can really set them on a positive path.
And I guess we've talked about understanding the challenges of Army families, and being able to engage with people and them tell you their real experiences so that you can change things. Is there a mechanism for you to hear about the positive outcomes? I know that I get constant feedback about the Gecko's Community Centre in Townsville at Lavarack Barracks, and that the community centre is staffed and resourced with uniformed members, and that makes all the difference, because what is there is that consistency and that effort put into that support, that Defence Community Centre, and that's positive feedback and something that other community centres could learn from and take from. How do you hear about the positive things? Who’s telling you about the good stuff?
CA: Fortunately, wherever I go around our Army, whether at home or overseas, there's overwhelmingly positive stories and it comes back to the kind of people that are attracted to serve, and their families.
This is genuinely, you know, people who are positively disposed, who want to engage with life, want to engage with opportunities and see that there are really valuable opportunities to service, and to life as an Army family. My own family is one of those. It doesn’t mean it's been easy and we haven't had our share of challenges, but on the whole, those opportunities have made us a better family.
Our children I think, you know, are quite mature and have an understanding of our country and the world and that, you know, that often doesn't come until you sort of enter into adulthood. And then the experiences we've had as a family, it's just been phenomenal all around our country. And obviously the people we've met, the communities we've been part of.
But I think it's really important to have a connection and the ability to communicate. So one of the recommendations I made in my testimony to the Royal Commission was, in the same way as we design, we call them capability bricks in the Army might be a missile battery. Could be an infantry company or a tent troop or whatever it is.
Why don't we design a health and wellbeing capability brigade? One of the key parts of that is a permanent, a dedicated resource, part of that thing that is specifically designed to connect with families, to communicate both ways with families, to ensure they understand what support is available, to understand what the experience and what the need is so we can use that flexible policy, to apply it in a way that's actually going to help their circumstances.
Because your circumstances, if you live in Port Hedland or Kununurra, will be quite different to your circumstances if you live in Western Sydney, for example. So I think that's where I am trying to move our Army and I’m quite encourage by the recommendations in the Royal Commission's report. And we're actually moving out on a trial inside Army to do exactly that in a few units, in a few months’ time.
Military Life: I love that you said that because my next notes for that question was, what about a wellbeing brick? But here for us, is a wellbeing brick. Could we translate that to families?
CA: So I love that we're on the same wavelength. Yeah, well, it's in my statement if anyone wants to have a look at it to the Royal Commission. I think it's a really important part. We've got to operationalise. We've got to have practical mechanisms that are dedicated. And we've done this before, for years when I was a CO in an Infantry Battalion in Brisbane, we did exactly this, but we had to take it out of hide, so to speak. In other words, you had to generate it locally from what you had.
The people were fabulous, they weren’t necessarily properly skilled or experienced, but that really made up for it in terms of their commitment. But that's not an organisational solution, that's a local ground up. Yeah, and you know, command teams out there are really good at doing ground up, but they need institutional support, that needs to be properly resourced. And we need to take up, you know, a proper form for this function approach.
Military Life: That was going to be my next note, was that, when you were CO, that you had mentioned in your statement the Royal Commission, that was happening in the background, but it was haphazard, as in it was happening on the ground, but it wasn't necessarily that there was investment in it. So now it's about actually investing in the capability bricks, the wellbeing bricks, so that it is part of a command team's job to invest in that area, that it's not the wellbeing of families sort of is the first thing that gets taken off the list, because capability requirements come first kind of thing. It's actually investing time and supporting people to invest that time into those wellbeing bricks.
CA: Yes, you've explained it better than I could. That's exactly the idea behind. And it's properly integrated because the other aspects, or the other sort of functions and skill sets in that brick can be things like people do, schooling, pastoral care, for example, who understand social work.
It's also the connections they have in that broader community, whether it's in the education system, whether it's in the public health system. Whether it's in specific requirements that your family may have, the general health or education, or whether it's helping people with skills to navigate through, you know, financial issues or the pragmatics of having to, you know, achievement, posting to another location quite quickly to go and support a parent or, you know, another family member that you need to help with.
Yeah, for whatever reason, all of those things that happen in life every day, you know, we shouldn't be surprised that they're going to happen. We need to be better organised and resourced and postured to be able to support them. So wherever I go, that's what our leaders are doing at all levels, from the Lance Corporal to the General. We've got to take an institutional approach, we’ve got to resource it, because if it's not resourced, it's not a priority.
Military Life: Moving on to the news that around 800 Army personnel will move out of Adelaide, with the majority soon to be based out of Townsville, and some moving to Brisbane and Darwin. How were the families considered in this decision? And how is Army ensuring that those spouses and families impacted by that decision to move personnel are supported? I know that there's been information sessions and there's been some events where members and families who will be moving have been able to come and ask questions and connect with command. But when that decision was being made, what consideration went into what spouses and families would face?
CA: Yeah. So I'd say three things. Firstly, it's important to understand the why. So the Defence Strategic Review was released on the 20 April last year, and our Army is moving very, very quickly to start executing on the tasks that we've been given. We've been investing in Adelaide for the very reason that it's a good place for families, even if you're not from there, whether you're from Perth or Western Australia, whether you’re from Melbourne, Sydney, it's a capital city that comes with all the sort of benefits.
And so at that stage, it was compared to a capital, affordable in terms of housing and those kinds of things. But as we did the analysis to say, okay, how do we achieve what we've been directed to do with the resources we have? It became very, very clear that we were going to need to move some of our people to the north.
Now, at the end, the state will have roughly the same number of people in families in Adelaide as we did previously. They'll just be people who do a different job. So that's the first part. Second part is we took a very deliberate approach and our career management agency went down there personally and sat with those that were going to be affected by the changes, and we were with them to understand where they would like to go. Here are the options. What would work best for you? And how do we support those, for whom those options didn't work. And so we've been slowly whittling that number down to something that's sort of in the tens now in terms of people. And then it was about communicating the why, the what and then how, how we you know, support you as we move through this process together.
So I think we learned a lot out of that process. So I think it provides a good model of how we want to, again, sort of institutionalise that approach. So I think it's a more personal approach. And I think it resonated well, do we fix to everybody's satisfaction all of the issues? No, of course not. Is that our aspiration and do we get, you know, quite a way there? Yeah. I think it's fair to say that we did, and continue to work with our people, with their families to see what works. We've got some fantastic title workforce system policies. How can we apply those in ways that are going to help families as well.
Military Life: Shifting to you, to your family, you and your family, obviously still living Defence life, even the Chief of Army, still dealing with the ups and downs of Defence life. So you have young adult children and that brings with it its own challenges with young adult children.
I guess when you and your family reminisce about the postings, DHA houses, the friends you've made and the opportunities, and maybe sometimes the challenges you've experienced along the way. What are some of the standout memories that come to mind or that make for a great story now that you can look back on it?
CA: There are many. We've always very consciously made the decision, exercise our own agency to focus on the good things in life and to focus on the time we do have together, rather than the considerable time we haven't had together. And that's a choice, because, you know, we could have decided to go and do something else at any stage in time.
So we own that choice. So as I answer the question in that sort of framework, you know, one that really stands out for us is when I was a Commanding Officer, we had a three year posting to Brisbane. It was the only time I had ever been posted there, our kids started school there. We bought a house while we were there, and we experienced for that three years what it was like to live in this phenomenal little school community.
And, you know, we still keep in touch with friends we made from those times. So it's about the community. It is about the people, it’s that sense of purpose and sense of belonging, which is similar to the Army family, but it was in the community. And so that really stands out for us, and we just love the life we were able to sort of create there.
Wherever we go, we buy the guidebook and treat it like we're sort of not quite tourists, but, you know, how are we going to make the most of this opportunity that we have?
The second is I was fortunate to be posted to the UK for the Staff College, and our daughter, my first child was born while we were there. So again, the friends we made, that community, people around the world that we are still in touch with today. Those things I think really make a difference.
And then the final point I make is just a reflection, is that our own, now young adults, I can't remember though maybe 10 or 12 years old. I can't remember where we were, it might be we we're here in Canberra, and we were contemplating the next posting, and my wife and I were having a conversation, you know, as we were driving in the front of the car, and you know, the impact on the kids, and about moving. And they pipped up from the back seat and said, yeah, basically, mum, dad, don't worry about it. We like moving.
So a bit of a lesson there, we always engaged them, but they have a view on these things as well. So many, many, memories and experiences that have shaped us, some good, some bad, some real challenges along the way. But on the whole, would we do it again? Absolutely.
Military Life: One of the questions that I've asked some of my previous guest is when they come back from being away, obviously, you know, Chief of Army, you've posted to a lot of locations now being Chief of Army, you get pulled in a lot of directions. You, you know, travel a lot. What's the thing that you want to do when you get back from being away? Like, what's the thing that grounds you or the thing that you miss the most or something that you like? I can't wait to get back home for that.
CA: We have a family dinner on Sunday nights. Regardless of who's home, it might be the two of us. So that's sort of the that point where we can just kind of get together and just catch up, share what's going on. I think with modern technology, you can connect, you know, there’s many different ways of keeping in touch.
I was deployed in the Middle East for three years. And so we worked very hard to, to try and make sure we were connecting, so simple things like, it's kind of like a Scrabble word game, we had a number of these things going on in the family, and you just take your turn when you had a chance, and it had a little text function, you could send notes, that kind of stuff.
Reading the same books at the same time. So you've got a commonality of experience even though you're apart. So just whatever it is, for you and your loved ones. But there are ways, but you've got to be conscious about it. You’ve got to plan and you've got to put those things in place.
Military Life: Who is usually the winner of the game?
CA: Not me. Normally mum.
Military Life: So you've got to be conscious of what you bond over.
And it might not be the game that you constantly lose, that you want to introduce something different next time.
CA: There's a healthy sense of competition, in the family. And, yeah, I'm generally not at the top of the league table, but that's okay.
Military Life: And lastly, what is your vision for Army families and their members today and into the future when you eventually look back on your time as Chief of Army, what is it that you hope to have achieve for families, or paved a path for the next person who steps into the role to then continue building on?
CA: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't like the word legacy at all. Because that's about oneself. It's about inheritance. It's the inheritance for the families, the soldiers that are going to operate, lead and command the Army of the future. I'll be going in a couple of years. So I'm working hard every day to build that inheritance. I want to see some very practical changes.
I want them to be reflected in policy, in resourcing, and there to be a dynamic relationship between where our people and families actually need to thrive and serve wherever they are in our country or overseas. That gives them agency and motivate and inspire them to want to continue to be part of the Army family. And I think all those things are measurable. They have to be measurable, and they have to be informed by the experience of our people.
Military Life: One last thing. So after that family dinner, just because you're Chief of Army doesn't mean that you get out of washing the dishes?
CA: Hell no. I also wash, and iron, and vacuum. Young adults are great, but they’ve still got their training wheels on when it comes to those.
Military Life: I guess they have to be reminded so many times to do the jobs, you just do it yourself.
CA: But, you know, to be frank, it's also a way of contributing, because you do feel you've got time and contribution to make up.
Military Life: Yeah, just busy running the Army.
CA: But a bit of contribute right back at home keeps your feet on the ground, which is really important. It's nice. There's no Chief of Army at home.
Military Life: Okay. That's right. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast Chief of Army Australia, Lieutenant General Simon Stuart.
CA: Thanks for having me back, and thanks for what you are doing.
Military Life: Thank you so much.